Nice! And deservedly!

Growing up playing Sims 2 and realizing as an adult that my body type is the 'fat' adult female and how ridiculous 2000s beauty standards were. For context, I'm a size M, tall and often called slim or athletic, but I look exactly like the 'fat' adult when I'm relaxed after lunch. As a kid I though it was genuinely fat and the thumbnail showed an obese person. I'm happy that I wasn't a teen in the 2000s cause that kind of mentality would've destroyed me.

Edit: teen female 'fat' is even chubby, it's literally a size small/medium and the majority of my teen girl sims are 'fat' while only the skinny model sims are 'nomal'. I also use new meshes for both ages with wider hips and thicker legs which are closer to the fat shape.

I don't think I ever thought the TS2 "fat" sims were fat, but I agree that the 2000s body standards were absolutely insane! It all seemed to get worse and worse and reach a peak and then someone was like no, no more of this.

I think this was more to do with the restrictions of the game- Maxis couldn't afford the extra animations that would have been neccessitated by adding larger bodies, so chose to keep the 'fat' model quite slim. You can see the problems they would have had if you play with some of the custom large bodyshapes. For a similar reason they just have one height for each age stage. Even in 2004 I thought the 'fat' body wasn't fat (and that seemed to be the consensus amongst players on the forums I frequented) - so I don't think beauty standards then were any more ridiculous than they are now.

Yeah 'fat shaming' is unfortunately still just as much of a thing. DX

I wonder how TS3 onwards managed animations with their greater body varieties.

I'm fully aware of that and I actually have "fat suits" for every age except toddlers. GTA San Adreas did a good job for CJ but there are less animations in that game. Sims 3 sims move a bit unnaturally and stand way too far from stuff which is probably the price of making it obese and body builder friendly. As for Sims 2, it was unnecessary to have an obese thumbnail and more appropriate to name it chubby or thin and average. Although you had common sense not to consider it fat, it does perfectly intertwine with the mentality in early 2000s pop culture of calling everyone who is above size small fat.

That's not a 2000s thing lol. Look at 'plus size' models nowadays, who aren't plus size at all; they just aren't anorexic.

The male fat morph is definitely fat. Beer belly lol.

I wouldn't assign it to malice, in this case. I think it's worth considering that at the time agendas/ideals weren't the primary focus of games. The goal was to make a good and fun game that people would buy. It is a modern thing to look at everything as "Oh look, they're doing this on purpose to exclude XYZ", where as back then that wasn't the thought process of the developers. They just wanted to make a good, fun and fictional game.

It's one of the many reasons I prefer older games: It's not about pushing politics/agendas/ideals, it's about making a fun game to play.

Nobody thinks they were deliberately excluding or vilifying anyone, dear.

The problem is that we live in a world of systematized 'isms and when we don't stop to consciously examine our assumptions, look at the real world (instead of at our presumptions about it), and act to include what is excluded by the systems we live in, we exclude almost everybody when we only intend to make a fun game to play. It's not being nitpicky, mean, or judgemental to say: "I am not reflected by this game, which makes it less fun for me, so how do we get my reflection in there?"

People don't choose their prejudices; but they can choose to overcome them. And corporations, by and large, won't choose to overcome them without a financial incentive.

I think we'd all like the base game to come with a couple of more body types, skins, and a few more hairstyles. Just for gameplay, if the Sims 2 had that, it would be almost perfect.

In addition to Superstar and Making Magic expansions.

I'd have no issues if it was included. That'd be fine by me.


Personally, I play games to escape the real world and all its problems, even if momentarily and only in game. So, focusing purely on real world issues without a bit of 'tongue in cheek' to it kind of breaks that. Because now, you can't escape the real world in the game, because it's there too. I am obese, but I would not want to play a character who is that way. My best friend who is wheelchair bound (has been her whole life) often jokes about how they want to add wheelchair characters to games, she simply says "Why would I want to play a character that's in a wheelchair? I don't want to be in a wheelchair!"

I think it's just a different mentality overall.

^ People's playstyles are as different as each person. Some people want to see a more accurate representation of themselves when making characters (body type, skintones, disability aides, etc.), while others prefer escapism and make characters very unlike themselves (switching up some or all parameters - gender, body type, skin, hair color, playing as an animalistic or fantasy inspired character, or what have you). And some people want a bit of everything.

Yeah, everyone should get to pick and choose which bits of reality they want in their game and which bits they'd rather ignore for it. And on the flip side, having something in your game doesn't mean you'd approve of it in real life.

What reality? The reality of fat people?

I'm not telling people how to play their game. I'm pointing out that dismissing discontent about things like bodyshape, whitewashing, etc. because the developers weren't thinking about being discriminatory but about making a fun game is confirming the point and being rude to those who object to being left unrepresented. Nobody's trying to be a killjoy or make you feel guilty - we just don't want our feeling of rejection laughed off by people who've never looked anywhere and not seen their self and their own reflection.

You can have a fun game with obese people in it! Nothing about fatness detracts from the fun! If the developers had thought about it for five seconds they'd have realized that! But the company had no financial incentive to make them consider it, and the systemic fatphobia was baked into the game, with fears of getting fat (I have a fear of losing weight, myself, and if you'd ever seen someone go through a period of wasting, so would you!) and a "fit" shape that is too skinny to support the muscular structure necessary for strength, and painted-on abs - if you can see someone's abs, they're not doing well, get 'em a drink. Since then nutritionists and fat people of the world have raised awareness of the issue and demand has risen for more body diversity in sims, so we're getting it in the later ones. With inferior gameplay, alas, but that's not related to the bodyshapes.

If we don't talk about it, we don't get improvement. If you feel like you're being blamed, scolded, or talked at - think about why that might be, when someone is clearly talking generally and not about you. Dismantling systemic oppressions starts in our own heads. And it's a lifelong job.

Both the fit and fat states are just so half-done that I sometimes wonder if Maxis forgot about them until after most of the animation work was done.

To be honest, I see that in Sims 4. I feel like they try harder to be inclusive and profit from it than making an enjoyable game. The market for ultra ultra inclusive minority friendly games is non existent and they want to take advantage of that. Not to mention that a large portion of modern simmers are LGBTQ+ or just eccentric people.

Maybe. Maybe it was firstly planned not to have body shapes at all at first cause all townies, npcs and most of pre-mades are slim. I'm also pressed that there's no muscle definition on the fit shape except for the skin change. Having lean muscles like fitness models for workout clothes would've been so cool for for females something like this . That wouldn't cause clipping. I have some lean bodybuilder shapes that fits perfectly to the game but it clogs my CAS all the time.

The fat mesh for the waiter outfit explodes. It took something like a decade and a half for players to notice, because you need a hack for NPCs to spawn as anything other than thin.

Well, I play a game to get away from all this- if you want to make a realistic game you'd not only have to include disability and different bodyshapes and gender expressions- but you'd also have to include racism and discrimination and the fact that women over a certain age can't get jobs on TV unless they have their face botoxed, and malaria and terrorism and genocide and... If you miss all of the bad stuff out you get Sims 4, which is a candyfloss Disney pile of shallow crap.

Sims 2 was filled with Will Wright's vision of the world which is why it's so funny; the french maid was Will's favourite and included despite the fact that it was an outmoded and sexist trope even in 2004, which shows you how much priority was put on what they wanted to make rather than what would have been good and wholesome and representational. I'm not 'dismissing discontent', I'm just stating that this was likely the reason that obese people were not represented in the game. It was low priority, and they ran out of time and money. In 2004 I was far more concerned that they still had fist fighting in the game- and in 2007 you actually had to fist fight with a sim to complete Sims 2 Lifestories.

Is that what life would be, without the really bad stuff? The world is always going to have bad things, but there's so much of it that we could choose to just stop. Wouldn't it be nice to play a world that can take the good without the bad?

Am I misunderstanding, or is the argument that you can't have a game that's both idealistic and fun? Because Sims 2 meets both standards. The Sims 2 had civil unions before most states did (offering civil unions instead of marriage is not ideal, especially today, but it was groundbreaking for the time). It didn't necessitate adding homophobia. We had different skin tones, but no racism (maybe some xenophobia, for lack of a better word, from one premade toward aliens). You can give people the tools to make their self-sim, if they want, and keep the challenges they face light and cartoonish.

The reason Sims 4 isn't fun isn't because of representation. It isn't fun because it was meant to be a mobile game, and when you start out with a bad foundation, there's not much you can do to fix it. It should've been put to pasture years ago, but EA isn't ready to stop riding the gravy train.

Two townie customers had their first kiss at J'Adore Bakery. Then one of them bought a wedding cake.

Slow down, guys!

Some people love to play games with wars, shooting and plenty of violence. It's still a form of escapism.

Some people want to be able to play their sim as an extension of themselves (with or without whatever differences from a percieved "standard" this would require), some want to have more diversity in their game, and some want more unique options to play around with (especially modders).

You don't need to put all kinds of realism into a game like Sims. You can for instance add the option of a sim to use a wheelchair, crutches or a cane without having to add the mechanisms of accidents and similar, or the option to wear medical aids like hearing aids and such as a separate type of accessory - but not necessarily need to go all in with other things like a sim being/acting deaf or blind, with whatever those options would encompass. Also, this isn't something everyone wants in their games (for one reason or another - could be triggers due to experiences, or simply not wanting this level of realism, or having other reasons), so I fully understand if all those options would be set to not show up on their own for townies and the like, if they were added in.

And some people really need to understand that there is a difference between their own games and other people's games. One person only plays with [x] type of sims, another person only plays with only [y] type of sims, a third person plays with [x, y, z] type of sims and love to widen their horizon. As long as everyone are respectful in how they communicate with other players, and aren't doing anything clearly meant to be offensive, let them play however they like. You do you, they do them. Strongly worded suggestions to do otherwise can often come off as personal attacks, especially if worded poorly, and in some cases this is often what makes people stop enjoying the game.

TS2 isn't a perfect example of how the game should be - but I think some of the issues mentioned also came from limitations in the game making tools at the time. I do think it would be difficult to find a perfect middle ground everyone could agree on, though.

I'm kind of confused because I didn't think that Sims 2 was discriminatory in any way.

Unilke a lot of games you can pick from light to dark skin, you can pick fat or thin, you can pick gay or straight. And all this without fat shaming, racism or homophobia. Sure, they didn't have the technical know how to do some things that they did in later Sims games, but they can't do everything.

What omglo mentioned. The Sims games have always been groundbreaking with LGBT stuff. They had gay sims when other games were being abused for having them. The one thing they've done right is to keep that up with newer games as society changes. From civil unions in Sims 1 to gay marriage to transgender options in Sims 4.

And just like when people complain about gay marriage. Gay marriage being around only affects you if you marry a gay person. If you don't want gay sims then don't make them. Sims also offers you the choice to make your sim world what you want it to be. Don't like an aspect of it then don't play that aspect.

The other thing they added is the ability to mod the game to Hell and back. If you want stuff that didn't come with the game then someone will have made it. Bodyshapes, extra skin colours, more realistic pregnancy and miscarriage, or even ways to make your sims safer. One person's game can be so different from another person's and that's one of the things that I think has given the game its longevity.

EA, being based in California, tends to reflect the broader social trends of that state-and their games have been pretty 'open minded' in times when being seen as 'different' (for whatever reason) by other people has been dangerous.
They're well-known for not having allowed people like Jack Thompson ref- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist) stop them from producing games that some people would call 'obscene.'