Convert to Beach Lot
 

Change a non-beach lot to a beach lot (and vice-versa?). It would be nice to add the water and beach functions to normal lots, but at this time we don't understand how those abilities are stored in the neighborhood or lot packages.

From http://www.modthesims.info/showthre...704#post2648704

At minimum, you would have to merge the beach lot objects and non-beach lot objects. However, there is a high likelihood that some of the IDs will conflict with each other. So, we'd need a way to determine which IDs conflict, find every instance of an ID, generate a new unique ID, and then change every instance of the ID with its replacement.

We'd also need to determine which objects are duplicates, so that one or the other of the duplicate objects could be eliminated and its associated records changed to the ID of the other object.

It might be do-able, but Pescado seems to believe that the duplicate object problem is a pretty major piece of work. Even when the beach lot is completely empty, there are a lot of hidden objects, which are the ones most likely to have problems with having duplicates. Reference:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=328165

I believe that walls should not be a problem; we should be able to just copy the necessary records directly, with perhaps a slight adjustment in location. This worked for Lost Angles, so we know that it works to copy the entire set of records. As well, I expect that the beach lot will not have any walls, so we don't really need to worry about merging.

So, while I never want to discourage people from researching internal file formats, I think that our time could be better prioritized.

Agreed; floor tiles should be simple, at least if there's no CC.

Copying the walls, wallpapaer, flooring and grid elevations is simple; that's basically what I did to reduce the EP-requirements of Lost Angles. At least, it's simple if we can ensure that there are no walls on the existing beach lot; if we have to merge walls then we will need more information about the WGRA and WLL records, especially in the area of the B array (which I believe holds room IDs).

I agree that limiting copying of objects to a specific area should reduce the likelihood of copying hidden objects. I currently know of no way to determine whether an object is a user-placed object or a hidden lot-functionality object. I also don't know how to tell whether one object is dependent upon another. Finally, I don't know how to copy only specific objects; my attempts at removing specific objects on the edge of the lot was not successful, which is why the LotAdjuster requires the user to remove objects from shrunken areas.

At this point, I still do not completely understand the interactions between the MOBJ, OBJT, XOBJ, OBJM, and XMTO records; however, it is clear that these interactions are important and will determine the success or failure of this project.

When I tried to use my previous understanding about the dependencies between these records in the LevelAdder program, to determine the level of each object, I realized that the current logic (which works for the portals, garbage can, phone booth, and mailbox) does not extend to all objects. At this time, I still have no algorithm for matching one specific object to the various record types and partial records; this is why the LevelAdder program has not been released. Reference:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=328166

I'm not saying that your idea is impossible. I'm just saying that I currently don't have the information that I need about the internal record formats to do this correctly.

If we can determine a foolproof way to correlate these records, so that the LevelAdder program can actually determine the level of every object on a lot, then we might have enough information to take a stab at copying an object to another lot.

It may be that "beach lot" is actually a set of hidden objects; although I suspect that there's more to it.

Here's my thoughts on an approach to this problem:

First, we need to determine how to find all records and portions of records which are associated with a specific object; the LevelAdder program is a good tester for this logic, since getting things wrong will leave objects flying in the air. Then, we need to determine how to move an object to another lot; we'll need lots of testing to ensure that objects continue to work correctly when added to a lot. At that point, we may find that there are actually very few hidden objects which are in the build-area of the lot, and which are thus "accidentally" moved.

Thank you for the interesting information.

Is it probably because certain lines are preloaded on those hidden objects, and it can cause problems when object ID get replaced?

If so, then keep the destination set while ignoring the source set. Now, would there be different versions of hidden objects? Anyone?



ture.
So, the "add level" is also working for beachlot?
If so, we can at least move or merge walls and floors at different sims-levels already.



So, while I never want to discourage people from researching internal file formats, I think that our time could be better prioritized.
[/quote]
True, that is for ConvertiWall.



I believe so based on the pop-up info and what has been observed.

Yes, I agree. When faced with a duplicate, definitely keep the destination version, since it may contain information which is relevant to beach lots.

AddLevel doesn't work, either for normal lots or for beach lots. It will add a level without any problem, but the objects may appear on the wrong level or at the wrong elevation. I got around this problem for my test lot by creating a new level which had an elevation of 0 (ie, no elevation changes to existing objects), and then I fixed every single object which ended up on the wrong level in-game (mostly ground-level outside).

However, even if AddLevel was working, I have never successfully merged walls from two different lots. This may be fairly trivial, given our current level of knowledge, but it's never been done and may have unexpected problems.

I don't believe that conversion to a beach lot requires the merging of walls from different lots, though. I assume that it would be best to merge a built lot and an empty beach lot.

The impression I've got from so-far, every object must have a master GUID though some objects can have more GUIDs held by the master GUID simply because they're multi-grid objects.

Tracking and listing out all the GUIDs already in the normal lots and beach lots respectively can make up 2 lists of hidden objects.
We have a chance to skip them without knowing how they affect or function at all as long as we're not moving a running family. In that case of running family, we'll need bhav-modders (eg. Numenor, Inge, Pescado, Echo, etc) and sims-modders to join to help research out or speak out what they can tell.

Besides making those 2 lists, we really have to parse the interactions between those object-related files. Actually, this task is best done by bhav-&-object modders (like Inge, Echo, Numenor, Jasana_BugBreeder, etc). for the simplest cause that they know more about these.

Indeed, to fully or mostly parse all or most files in lot package may really take more different types of modders here.
1. bhav modders (for hidden objects and correlation of object-related files, how the game runs for game-play because lots are where all these happen at.)
2. sims modders (for sims and sims-related infos, family infos), but not BS-product creators (those who can only make BS products out of BS.)
3. willy testers to help test under different environments.
4. maybe more.

I'm not an object modder, an bhav modder, a sims modder, nor a programmer.
I'm a lot builder, build-mode modder, material-modder, so you see why I can mostly provide infos related to build mode. That's my den so far in TS2.

I've checked 3 files of the mentioned, and realised we were lucky that the portals, garbage can, and the mail box tend to be found at fixated locations while some other objects can be randomly placed along the lists in these files in different lot files.


What I suppose:
00. To gather what we seem to have known in a list first.
01. There must be a place for GUID.
02. There may be a place for object reference for repository cause, especially obvious when multiple copies of the same object with its specific GUID.
02a. To test this, multiple copies of a single-tiled/grid object may help.
02b. I wonder if a lot can still be stable in build mode when all objects are deleted including the hidden ones and the portals, garbage can, and the mail box. We may use such lots for the following testings.
02c. After the single-tiled/grid object test(s), a single copy of objects of multiple grid/tile may help, followed by multiple copies of such.
02d. We may use a custom recolourable object.
03. There should be a reference for object recolour.
04. There must be coordinates for object placement.
05. There should be an angle info or its reference for diagonal placement and normal placement of objects. So, this may take 8 if not 3 copies of the same lot at 8 different consecutive if not 3 well chosen stages for all 8 possible angled placements to show the differences. Note this may be like tile mapping as in 3D array instance 0x00.
06. There can be a stage reference for when an object is being used/run, especially for played lots. It can be what Inge had once said something like a whole 3D world with the object mesh parts at the position when the lot was saved?
07. Any graphical animations supported by shaders has no relevance here coz they are simply re-initiated and re-drawn once a lot is loaded.
08. There are still some "miscellaneous" unknown files with unrecognised data. How different are they among different sorts of lots?
09. 3D array instance 0x0C for the location of some objects at least buy-mode objects.
10. 3D array instance 0x0B for correlation between "room ID" and "light" (cell-shading in a closed room?)
11. more?




lol, GeneralOperationsDirector, come on, help us out, won't you?
If not, I reckon GeneralOperationsDirector == GeneralOperationsDirectorObserverTender . :P



Surely, the "ocean reflection" for lotskirt water is only available in beach lots but not normal lots or the in-lot view of the neighbourhood.

There're different hidden objects for sims intereactions.

There're wave-makers as Inge had found.

There's the pool-like beach-water/ocean/sea.





Then, we may need bhav-object modders to visiualise these hidden objects. Let's think of the Inge's portal revealers.

True, but I think that to start with the easiest like simply copying the build essences like walls and floors to an empty lot is more promising.
Should certain things can't be solved shortly, at least some features can already be ready.

Agreed. That technique worked really well with Lost Angles, since the furnishings were far less important than the overall building structure. It might be "better than nothing" for converting to beach lots, as well.

I also like your idea of just removing all objects. If we remove all objects on a beach lot and it is still recognized as a beach lot by the game, then we know that the objects are not important to the "beach lot" specification. In that case, copying all objects, walls, roofs, etc (with a possible shift in location to account for the beach area), replacing the existing objects, walls, roofs, etc, and then placing the missing beach and wave portals manually may give us what we need.

In fact, if we didn't try to copy the 2D and 3D arrays (flooring, grid elevations, water levels, etc), then we might be able to do a proof-of-concept without actually writing any code. Just use SimPE to copy the necessary records, add the portals in-game, and test. If that works, it should be relatively easy to write a program to copy the records that we did by hand, as well as copying partial 2D and 3D array records.

If we don't need to merge object records, then the whole task becomes much simpler.

If you want me to DO something, please be a little more specific. I`m glad to help where I can, but I don`t know what would be helpful here, besides offering Generally Observant Dialog.

At this point, it would probably be more work to tell you what to do than to just do it myself. But, thanks for the offer.

Heh, I know what you mean. BT, DT. You`re welcome. If you change your mind, let me know. niol, if you come up with anything in particular, let me know. `K?

P.S.: Wasn`t Godot the name of a well-known scientist a couple dozen decades ago or so?

Sorry to be a bit naughty... :P

I was just wondering..

Since you nicely decide to offer...

Can you help making my suppositions from 2-5 in post 5 of this thread? one set for normal lot and one set for beach lot.

Currently, I can't access my games but simpe...


I do believe GeneralOperationsDirector can pick up fast coz GeneralOperationsDirector is very wise and sweet.
No worry...


PS:
GeneralOperationsDirector,
if you will that acronym, surely, you're free to interpret it in whatsoever way you like. and I'll be appreciated as long as we all are happy with it/them...



funs, joys and more!

[deleted]

Thanks in advance regardless of your decision.

Was this directed at me? If so, I suppose I could help there. Whatcha want done? Actually, I "pick up fast" because of Asperger`s Syndrome, but I`m pleased that you think I`m "very wise and sweet", because I certainly do *try* to be so. Hmm? [Slightly confuzzled here.]::huggles::Which mods, please?You`re welcome.

I think so :P

[deleted]

Anyway, back to the lot test.
Can you make 1 "empty" lot per normal lot and beach lot and copy the these 2 lot files out from the your sims2/neighbourhoodN???/ instead of exporting out as simspack files?

Just in case, you can use find/search to seek through the whole sims2 folder and its subdirectories in your mydocuments/or the like under different OS platform.
May sort through the access date, so that you can know which two lot files to upload here...

But you yourself, please save the lots for later usages. I'm gonna manually remove most objects I can see and upload back here for you to add in some 1-tile object later. After that, you can upload the resultant lots back here, so I can download them to check.

I hope I'm clear, but if not, please ask more.

Thanks...




Mootilda,

(just to show that you're not ignored.)

I don't feel ignored. I'm quite happy if you two can work out some of these tests without me. Good luck!

I hope so and hopefully, GeneralOperationsDirector does join into our effort...

Ok, niol, let`s see if I understand you correctly.

You want me to make one empty non-beach lot, and one empty beach lot, right?

You then want me to manually extract copies of the two lots for later use, right?

Can do. Will do tonight. Any preference on lot size? Should I make them the same size as one-another?

Then what? Archive them and upload them here?

P.S.: Checking out that link you gave me.

Edit: I don`t think I can help you there, as with my current system I can have either visible fish or nice-looking pools, but not both at once. When I turn my shaders on I get fish, but it ruins the swiming pools.

GeneralOperationsDirector,

"Any preference on lot size? Should I make them the same size as one-another?
Then what? Archive them and upload them here?"

Thanks for asking me about them that I forgot to specify.

1. lot size - the smaller the better, say 1 x1 lots. probably, from copies or fresh from Mootilda's LotAdjuster

2. yes, they're better of the same size for easier and better comparison, you've got... You surely understand what I mean even though I forgot to mention... :slap myself for that:

3. "manually extract copies of the two lots for later use, right?"
Yes, like a lot package file "N00?_Lot?.package" and its corresponding "N00?_Neighborhood.package" without the quotation marks. Surely, if they are made in the same brand new testing neighbourhood. That's a plus to save a file and works.

4. Yes, upload them in whatever way you feel comfortable with. Thanks...


[deleted]
Thanks again.

1x1 beach lot? You just want to see the water? Or, just the road?

I also think that you should give some thought to U11... with the "right" U11 value, things should copy over without any move requirement, so I'd try to choose a lot which scanned side to side, starting at the road and working towards the water.

niol, I responded about your hack testing *here* because you asked me *here* to have a look at it, and I cannot help with that, for the reasons given previously, unless you are willing to get results from a less-than-perfectly-functioning system. Even so, I am reluctant to mess with that part of my system BECAUSE it is functioning less than perfectly, and I have concerns about making it function even less perfectly. No point in posting there only to say "No", is there?

Back to the issues relavent to this thread, I apologize for not creating those lots for you; none of my existing neighborhoods --in particularly not my Testing Neighborhood-- has *any* locations suitable for adding a beach lot, I am not ready to add any subneighborhoods to my playing neighborhood, and I didn`t feel last night like adding a subneighborhood to my Testing Neighborhood just to create one beach lot. I will do that, just not immediately. Mebbe tonight, perhaps. Probably this week, sometime. This month, almost certainly. When I do, I will create a beach lot of the smallest size the game will allow unhacked, and a normal lot of the same size and orientation in the same neighborhood, and process them both as previously indicated. Will this do?

Oh, I see you want the neighborhood package, too. Will a sub-neighborhood of an existing testing neighborhood do, or do you need an entirely new main `hood?

P.S.: You don`t need to "without the quotation marks" with me; I grok that anyway. .

Mootilda,

You're right. :red face:
see, I've not played for too long that I forgot the beach lot has to be at least 3 deep from the road... :bonker: Lol, then,


GeneralOperationsDirector,

1. the lot size should be around 40x50 grid square (4x4 or 3x5, 5x3)
2. as for the location for U11, may just follow what Mootilda has said on post 18.
3. may move around the custom neighbourhoods. you can move the whole folder for the playing neighbourhood out to my document or somewhere else and replace the location with a new testing hood in which such suitable region of a neighbourhood can be found. MTS2 should have plenty of such neighbourhood templates to download.

[deleted]

I already have a HUGE number of SC4 maps available to make a `hood from, and have many more ready to install.

Don`t NEED to move whole neighborhoods around; can create NEW one if needed: have many unused neighborhood numbers and much disk space available. Don`t know what is needed, though: do need to make place for beach lot, but do not know if SUB-`hood is OK, or if need new MAIN `hood. Please clarify.

Fish require shaders on. With shaders on, pool goes bonkers. Have issues: water not display right, walls not display right, floor underneath not display right. With shaders off, can`t see fish, and fish die of neglect. Is mess. Don`t think CAN help with anything that messes with pool when pool already broken.

I think that you'd be best creating a new main neighborhood, rather than a subneighborhood. Less data for us to process. Is that a problem?

Perhaps this stuff about pools and shaders could move somewhere else. It seems like a distraction from the issue about how to convert to a beach lot. My preference is to keep these discussions focused on what's needed to write the tools.

Mootilda:

Re neighborhood main vs sub: No problem, really. Just needed to KNOW before doing it "wrong", ya know.

Re the "other discussion": All *I* am discussing is why I think I cannot help there, and the only reason I`m discussing it *here* is that *here* is where the request that I help was made. ::shrug::

Here are the requested lot and neighborhood packages. This is a brand-spanking-new neighborhood, with two lots added manually. Everything else is bog-standard, and left out of the archive. I can supply any of the missing files, if needed, but *they* were not requested. .

Usually, the hood and lot packages are all that's required. Thanks for doing this. I hope that niol has a chance to look at them soon (looks like there's already one download, so he may be working on this as I type).

That`s what I understood, too. You`re welcome. Yeah, there`s still one download as I type. I hope it helps. FYI, the two lots are virgin untouched lots, never ever entered in any mode.

Would it be useful to compare a virgin untouched lot with a lot template? Could we perhaps learn how to create true template lots at non-standard sizes, so we won`t have to clutter our Lot Bins with dozens of fake-template lots?

GeneralOperationsDirector,

Thanks for the lots.



All,

No, it wasn't me who downloaded the first. In the beginning , I thought it was one of posters of this thread or GeneralOperationsDirector tested it once to see if it worked. Now, a little mystery! :D

Some people will download anything!

::giggle:: Yeah!

You`re welcome, niol. Any comments re creating new sizes of lot templates, Moo`?

All,

Alright, my bad for my not informing GeneralOperationsDirector of make a build change before saving and packaging the lot files. :slap my face with some sounds:

Such build change can be just adding in a plant or shrub or a tree, and then delete such object in order to stimulate the game to save the ltos once to add in the lot data from the invisible temp file.

Actually, selectively clicking at the "save" button without making a build change can already do the arts.

It's the option to "go to the neighbourhood mode"/"leave the lot" that automatically check if a user makes a change before a save.


Maybe, a way to ensure whether the lot has been saved is to check the sizes are "0" kb and the modified time which should be pretty latest among all files found in the same directory.


GeneralOperationsDirector,

Can you please enter the lots and click the save at least once before re-packaging? Thanks...


All,
I've been checking the in-lot object-related files as well as Inge's notes to get a better idea of those files, and I find myself partially confused for why there're many coordinates. Hopefully, the single-object testing can help simplify the data for us when it works.

[deleted]

Let's try to keep this thread on topic and keep the chit chat about building in the research thread. I believe that we're all monitoring that thread, along with a bunch of people who aren't reading this one.

Would you mind if we took this to the main research thread? I've answered there:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthre...963#post2713963

"Would you mind if we took this to the main research thread?"

Not at all.

"I've answered there"

Thank you.

Package for Niol!
 

Niol asked me to make a couple of test lots...this is an empty hood, Base + BV. No sims, two empty lots - one beach, one plain. Hope that's all correct.

aelflaed,

Thanks

you're welcome!

Sorry, niol, I didn`t know that you wanted them entered and saved.

I see that aelflaed has posted a pair of lots for you made with just the base game and Bon Voyage. When I play tonight, I`ll enter my special beach-lot neighborhood and "do something" in the lots, then save them, then re-upload tomorrow, and you can compare the differences from TWO environments, and difference the differences, too.

GeneralOperationsDirector,

That's OK. I know you're busy on your tool and other matters.
To free you out of the our previous interaction on this test, I from the beginning never expect anything must happen to cause an advance on this test. If there's anything to happen, good. If not, let it be and not bad. These're completely understandable results to me.

N if you still feel like to add in this one more instance for further comparisons, I guess the whole group will be appreciated as well.

So long as we're all happy with what this is processed and accomplished.

I didn`t play last night, as I got home from work [pardon my British] too bloody whipped to bother [took two Tylenol PM and went straight to bed]. I expext to play again tonight, though, and I still intend to prepare those lots at the next opportinity, and post them at the next opportinity thereafter. As for my tool, progress is being made at the pace of an arthritic snail that occasionally [but rarely] ingests copious quantities of caffiene. IE, none at all for long periods, with occasional bursts of [relatively] intense activity. The biggest hurdle at the time of this writing is getting the tool to write package files to disk, after having opened one to modify. The first step of that is to write out a [possibly dummy] file header. Easy enough to do, just needs to be *done*.

GeneralOperationsDirector,

Presently, I'm fixing my XP + .net2 OS copy which are essential to run simpe. It went out 2 days ago, and now I've decided a new installation instead of a fix after sessions of frustration.
Thus, no rush.

Lol, I had been immersed into Canadian, British, American and International Englishes, so I have no problem with wordings that may sound rude in a particular "dialect".

[I`m *not* British.]

Meanwhile, the "edited" lots are available here, as I *did* play last night, and *did* prepare the archive for reuploading.

:giggle:

... it matters only in terms of serious meanings... to me...

Thanks... I've cleared the HD for a complete whole erase, format, setup.
So, I'll start to work on them pretty soon again.

You`re welcome.

Would you be interested in comparing a beach lot TEMPLATE with a non-beach lot TEMPLATE?

I've already extracted those files from the EP installation discs.

Sorry, honestly just finished installed the OS copy for the 4th time to get a desirable os copy (win xp + sp2 + .net framework 2).
The previous copies had slow-down for unknown reasons and some odds, but this one is pretty decent this time. So, gonna have to take care of it better and back-up properly.

Good luck with that, niol.

...so what kinds of differences are there between the two classes of templates?

For that matter, what are the differences between residential and community templates? I`m about to go in-game and check, but can we make community beach lots? I know that at least one exists at one of the vacation destinations, but I don`t remember seeing any templates for making our own. Then again, I suppose that "changelotzoning community" might do the trick...?

Wouldn't you just put down a template, then designate it res or comm when prompted?Same as with normal lots?

I have a beach community lot in my current game.

aelflaed, have you looked into the folder that the templates are stored in? There are seperate templates for residential and community non-beach lots. I forgot to go check if we could make community beach lots in-game , but I`m pretty sure that there aren`t seperate residential and community beach lot templates...checking...oops, there ARE seperate templates for them. ::blush:: It`d still be interesting to know the difference bewtwen community lot templates and residential lot templates.

I don't dig into the files unless I have to. Remember, I'm the Reluctant Modder.

Sorry, I've been inert these days as my older pc run terribly unstable, still figuring how to fix it better... gonna try to see if simpe loads on it still.




Lol dear, in this group, we've got at least one more reluctant modder! :D

Just for funs if we all think so. if not, please let me apologise when this kidding sounds offensive.
]

(added 20090930)
PS,
I"m also a reluctant modder. :P

All,

update:

just got a 2nd hand card for my another PC to run.
I'm setting up things to get ready for simpe and others...

Just a pointer to a new thread on this topic:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=446054

It really looks like beach lots have some inherent property which is not implemented as objects. That property controls things such as the location of beach activities and the use of the beach portals.

We've found the flag for the inherent beach lot property, and you can now turn it on or off using the LotAdjuster. This is the current research thread:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=504118