EA / Maxis is the problem though.

In TS3 we got a Generations pack in a single pack. It has taken how many in TS4 to be somewhat of a equivalent? Is it 6?

Growing Together

Parenthood

Discover University

Highschool Years

Toddler Stuff

Wedding Stories

What am I missing or does anybody want to add something to the list?

According to Steam, not buying anything on sale or in a bundle, to get a somewhat generations experience in TS4, it will cost a person $149.95. According to Steam for the TS3 Generations pack today, it is $19.99. I think it was around $40.00 when it came out. Even if that were the case today, the math tells a person all they need to know. EA and Maxis are masters at playing the FOMO game. If a builder has to have that wallpaper or whatever it is, they'll blow $40.00 for a single wallpaper. This kind of stuff happens all the time regardless of whether we're talking about a legacy player, builder, people that just make pixel dollies, ect... None of this is anything new, it has been going on for years.

https://store.steampowered.com/sear..._12&term=Sims+4

Sure, people can spin the numbers however they wish, but it is still $150.00 for a incomplete experience.

Expanding on the subject of the packs being broken up so piecemeal, it means that there is little to no interactivity between packs. The packs are small enough as it is, but then it feels so much worse when a game play element form one pack can't interact with any of the others. At no point has this felt more game-breakingly obvious than in my most recent family playing off-the-grid, where I can browse Plopsy, and update Social bunny, but not order a pizza or adopt a dog. Cooking off the grid only includes base game foods, often with only one serving option, even City Living recipes that don't require a stove are broken such that they cannot be completed. Things that should have off the grid alternatives, do not (vacuums anyone?) I had to download about 47 new mods JUST to make off-the-grid game play FUNCTION. The fact that this may be the most egregious, but is far from the ONLY example should be a good hint as to WHY players are beyond done with the sims 4.

As soon as you try to do anything besides play TS4 as a young adult party simulator, the cracks widen into a chasm that it's often just better to walk away from than attempt to cross.

ANOTHER good example that still infuriates me is that occults (besides aliens) have exactly Z E R O game play until they are teens, Why can't my vampire kids eat plasma fruit? Why don't my mermaid toddlers grow a tail when they play in the ocean? It's all for the same reason teens are exactly the same same as YA are exactly the same as Adults are exactly the same as elders. It's the laziness. The unapologetic laziness. To give children, toddlers, infants, newborns any kind of game play element would require effort, and we've seen time and time again that effort is something they refuse to do.

You say the developers deserve to be paid for their work. Well, where is the work I'm paying for? Show me the work that they deserve to be paid for, because all I'm seeing is a bunch of sub-par, low-effort content that can (and frankly, should) be replaced with better, modded versions that I would be much happier throwing my money at.

Currently in my country, the entire sims 4 collection costs a new player $1,492.37
and THIS is what they think is worth $1,492.37

I feel like it's time to dig out this old meme

ʸᵉˢ ᵗʰᶦˢ ᶦˢ ᶠʳᵒᵐ ᵐʸ ᵒʷⁿ ᵍᵃᵐᵉ. ᴺᵒ ᴵ ᵈᵒⁿ'ᵗ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ᵗʰᵉ ᵘⁿᵉᵈᶦᵗᵉᵈ ᵒʳᶦᵍᶦⁿᵃˡ.

Although much of this has been hashed here before, the fact that it is being repeated only further solidifies the frustrations of playing this game. But the developers never learn. The Gurus smile and tell us it'll all be fixed in the next update (which much of it never is) , or that that's the way it was planned (okay, so who exactly are the planners?) or that's just how it is so grin and accept it.
(I also realize that they rush things out the door half-finished, and many times do not test play things before release, as well.) It's stuff like this that makes me scared of upcoming TS5 - though there are many that are anxiously awaiting it (and all the problems it'll have, too.) - and even though I have said, give TS5 the benefit of the doubt since it hasn't arrived, yet.

Man, it's a B trying to stay optimistic.

I guess it's like this: life simulators simulate life. But in this case, it's not the sim characters in the game that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the game (its development, presentation, and implementation, etc.) that simulates life. As the world's greatest philosopher once said: "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get."

Well - The Sims is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.

Or not get.

What annoys me the most is that the worlds got smaller with every expansion pack. San Sequoia is so empty. At least I want real houses next to each other like in Newcrest/Willow Creek/Oasis Springs. I don't like these empty worlds. It feels so limited and it makes no sense since they have created worlds that have more lots.

Ahh but you see, that cycles us back around to the 'having to do work" part. Making small, empty worlds means
1) they have to design fewer lots
2) they have to design fewer Sims
3) they have to program less routing

It could even be argued they're barely even doing 1 anymore, giving "s i m f l u n c e r s" the great "o p p o r t u n i t y" to design a house FOR them ᶠᵒʳ ᶠʳᵉᵉ

And just think, with all that money they saved they have the resources to do another Sims Sessions! IDK about you, but I absolutely love when expansion pack resources are siphoned off to hire some random pop idol to re-record a single song for the radio no one realistically listens to enough for it to matter.

@ShigemiNotoge

Yes, for them it makes perfectly sense. But for us players. They knew we would rant about the closed worlds since we had the open worlds in Sims 3 so they gave us worlds with more lots in the beginning of the Sims 4. And then they were so evil to build worlds with just 10 or 12 lots in it. It's like "it was not good in the beginning, but we make it even worse". And you're right, they have these simfluencers now. So they could make more lots because they have some people who are happy making lots for them.

Less there is there is less to do, true, but you seems to have missed that we were told a few EPs back the the worlds would get smaller and smaller as the game cannot handle adding much to it. And that is the problem. If the game was not done to run on a potato for the 12s originally they could do larger worlds, if wanted. But they know the game has problems as to what it can handle. And that is sad.

Yikes! I did miss that indeed! Is that where we are now? Where they're saying the quiet stuff out loud? Are they openly admitting, (in a round-about way) that the Sims 4 has long overstayed it's welcome? They're acting like this blindsided them in the sims 4 when they know well from experience that this is exactly what happens, THREE TIMEX OVER. They knew and STILL decided to keep 4 around 5 years longer than was realistically feasible for it?



Make no mistake, I was by no means trying to justify it for them on their behalf. The whole thing is, and was from the start malign, and selfish in nature.

"Simmers, we hear you, and we want you to know we're listening to your feedback and understand your concerns. We just really, really don't care, and money is very nice."

I'll say it again: TS2 has had over at 30 lots, while being closed world. Although it was evident mostly with the last expansion pack, prior to Primadonna Cove you could place lot how ever and how many you wanted And it's an apartment expansion that you could actually simulated multiple dollhousss open-world like without loading screen. City Living all did is took a crap and that's that. Higher buildings? That too shown it could been done through cheat codes.

I find I just don't want to play Sims 4 as much as I want to play Sims 1 or 2. If you do, that's great! I love so much of the content, it bums me out that I can't get into the game play, but there are some major sticking points, the biggest being just how scripted the game is. It feels like the more they add, the less there is of me in the game play and, frankly, this started with Sims 2 and got progressively worse with each game. The simplicity of character, wants, motives, etc....in Sims 1 allowed me to immerse myself fully in the game play. There's also a clunkiness to downloaded content since Sims 3, with the size of the files. It was easier to change the world in Sims 1 & 2 and harder to explore the possibilities in 3 & 4. I don't have the fanciest computer and never had.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Most people don't really bring that up in these types of discussions. The packs and money things were a piece of Sims from the beginning. Will Wright himself pointed out that adding expansions was a way of getting a "subscription" to the game, allowing more money to be made.

As happens a lot, the original poster of this is long gone from this thread having seen how the wind blows here. So this is back to preaching to the choir.

TS4 is slowly coming along, but it’s adding core features from BASE GAMES past incredibly late. TS4 is doing in 10+ years what TS1-3 did in 4-5.

There are now elements of TS4 is like, but build mode is still the best part of TS4 and even gosh still has issues. Many BASIC things are missing or need to be completely done over.

If you want to get a feel for how TS4 is designed, look to how penthouses are designed: The elevator doors don’t open, and community lots require a mailbox.

Much of the content that has returned if often shallow or undercooked, especially earlier additions. Running a retail business or restaurant are still lackluster experiences.

Expansions are starting to feel like paid patches. Growing together felt like a patch and a game pack in one package.

Kits have become an issue. There are also more build kits than fit kits, which also says a lot about the game.

I like that the restaurants are far better than just getting the professional kitchen items in 3. That was one place where 3 missed doing something IMO. And 2 had some things that I wish we had gotten such as hotels. And the bakeries and restaurants were done better as I recall.

When in CAW in 3 I almost always wish we had the restaurants there that we at least got in 4.

Restaurants in 3 were a crime, but every business in 3 was awful due to the open world functionality. Very hit or miss. TS2 restaurants (and businesses overall) are still the best.

I imagine running a hotel/resort in TS3 will eventually run into the issue of making money from a lot with only 10–5 guests at a time.

The only way I can imagine them getting away with large but buildable hotels is to have rooms be objects (different sizes of enclosed boxes that vary in price and design, similar to closets but they behave like tents) sims can walk in and out of, and have have Suites function as actual rooms behind doors for specific Sims groups. The “room” system can result in special living arrangements like camper trailers for Outdoor Retreat, Huts for Island Living.

I ran a resort once in Riverview and it went quite well.
Would you mind elaborating how the open world interferes with running a business in TS3? I haven't done much with the Open for Business Mod yet but when I tested, it worked quite well in a small world. So, I can find a way to work around things. Thanks!

With an open world active at all times, the game has to constantly balance resources with player needs and existing gameplay features (like hotspots and what Sims visit what clubs). If a world has 200 Sims, 10-15% of the world's population would need to visit a resort when Sims aren't doing other things, like working, visiting other lots, etc., or aren't of age, it can feel like a huge request.

A big complaint with Sims 3 is lots feeling empty. If a world has 20 community lots and 200 Sims, you'd ideally expect 10 Sims to popular each community lot, but this isn't the case. You'll often hear complaints of 4-5 Sims on a lot because Sims are elsewhere (usually in a rabbit hole). The game does try to push Sims to lots where the player is, but sometimes, there's a trait conflict.

With some lots, the game will forcibly push Sims there, but if enough Sims aren't being pushed to a lot - because owning certain lots doesn't mean it will sent enough Sims there for gameplay balance purchases (like owning a popular restaurant vs a not so popular one), you're at the mercy of the engine and how busy the world is. Real Estate income is assessed based on lot value, not activity, because the game cannot push enough Sims to a business for it to generate income. If the player owned every lot, they'd make no money unless income was artificial. There wouldn't be enough Sims to generate enough sales.

Unlike TS2, the game only processed one lot at a time. This allowed the game to push Sims at a steady pace depending on the business state. The only time business was simulated was off the lot with a manager.

The lack of Sims on lots in 3 is a problem. I have read some things to try to help that but ATM do not recall what they are and have to check into that again. That is one thing that 4 does well. The lots are busy. But I get sick of seeing the same ones over and over and over and ones where it really makes no sense for them to be there.

I don't know of anybody that can run TS3 with 200-plus sims in a world and not have a problem. I cap my world populations ( this includes playables, NPCs, tourists if I allow them, ect...) somewhere between 100-150 and don't get any lag. I also don't allow my sims to breed like rabbits either. Pregnancy and or adoption are shut off until I decide who will have children. Of course there are ways to extend family ties across worlds with mods like NRAAS Traveler, but that's not the point.

As for the amount of sims being on lots, that depends on the computer a person is playing on. If they have a potato GPU, they won't see many sims. If they are playing a large world with many of the same kinds of lots, sims will be scattered all over the place. If people only have a world of the same kinds of sims in terms of traits, they won't see busy lots. Bookworms as a example are not going to be found hanging out at the bars or gyms. Addressing this problem / issue...whatever a person wants to call it isn't a simple as black and white. There are numerous factors that need to be taken into consideration.

The whole push thing can also be addressed with mods. In a native TS3 game, teens are pushed to get a job. Why? Who knows.

TS3 businesses will never be like TS2, but things are not as bad as some like to make it out to be.

The thing is, Resorts DOESN'T actually adversite Sims (inacitive and towny) ones to come in it. I know this bexcause I ran playtest worlds a few town, that started out empty with no lots other rhan just a SINGLE residential lot and abRESORT as the only community lot. So really, it's not a matter how there are too many lits, but how RESORTS are programmed to behave.

I haven't had the problem with empty community lots in a long time. For me, it's been a matter of capping the number of community lots and limiting population.
I ran a revamped Riverview for 10 generations with 1 resort, 3-5 hangouts of various kinds, 4 bars/lounges and they were always full enough. My resort was a smashing success.
All I have for this is a mod from Naughty Simsasylum that pushes more sims to go out.

I agree, it's all a matter of setting it up properly. There are many factors to consider. But it's not that hard to do.

Resorts are a bit of an exception because the game artificially inflates guest numbers with resort towers so it can succeed, but good luck having a super successful restaurant (an active business, not the game's real estate system) without mods.

The Sims 3 just wasn't built around the idea of Sims having a business. The simulation doesn't properly support it without lots being completely reworked

I tend to put too many community lots in the worlds I make as I think they are fun to do and I want my family to have many places to go and not to the same ones over and over. But they tend to enjoy them alone when there due to that. Sigh.

I think the issue is the same with clubs, given the persistent world where sims have to be somewhere sometime, there are really only so many in-world sims that it can push to your lot, and the townie system is unfortunately also not geared towards stores and restaurants- ideally it would conjure up temporary sims to act as customers, but this is not the case.

In TS2 and TS4, as the lots are in their own instance, the game can literally conjure up crowds for your stores and restaurants, TS4 less convincingly so.

Personally in my TS3 games, I found that limiting the number of community lots helps improve crowd count. This might mean that they won’t be able to sample all the drink varieties, but most clubs and bars play the same anyways.

It has been awhile since I've watched a TS4 LP, but from all that I've seen, it is always the same sims that show up in TS4. Father Winter is always getting his drunk on at a bar, Bob and Eliza Pancakes, the Landgraabs, Judith Ward and so the list goes on. There is nothing 'authentic' about the sims that show up. The game recycles the same sims over and over in the name of making a lot look busy whether they should be there or not. Father Winter is a NPC for ffs, why he is a bar fly?

If we're going to play the compare sims games game, Father Winter should only be around for a day, then disappear until it is Christmas again in game. Whether he shows up after hanging around a bar all day or not, that is a different type of discussion.

If people are not bothered by this endless recycling, that's fine, but lets not pretend that somehow TS4 is superior to lots and how busy they are. And no, a person doesn't need mods to fix the core problem with sims being on lots for TS3. It requires time, reading and understanding what and why changes need to be made, but at the end of the day, changing a lot isn't hard. It is literally clicking as button and picking from a drop down menu.

The trouble with certain special NPCs in TS4, is that if the game is forcing them to attend normal functions such as bars, there's a very good chance they have already lost there special NPC status. More precisely, the special NPC trait first issued to them will have been removed. So that the next time that special NPC is called into service for their unique role, the game will have to generate a new version. It all depends if Maxis put the blocking caveat on their unique trait or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Father Winter is actually a banned entity for most community venues. In the Sim Filter Tuning XMLs for each lot type, his unique NPC trait will usually be one on the banned list.

However, there is yet more to the issue that keeps it an ongoing thing where banned sims slip through the net. It's the adding/removing trait mechanic that was specifically introduced for pets, does in fact effect sims too. Where pets are meant to be fully autonomous non-controlled entities, there are hundreds of hidden traits they are issued with and removed to get them to do most things. Yet this mechanic began effecting sims. In effect, sims who were properly banned via the Sim Filter Tuning, were (and still are to a degree) having their special hidden traits removed, like a pet, just to force them to attend the venue. One of the worst case scenarios of this are for occult sims, such as when aliens are banned from a venue, so the game removes their alien occult trait just to force them to attend that venue. And that's their life as an occult removed, due to mechanics designed for pets only. I did report this to EA Help soon after Cats & Dogs and I did see it stopped happening. But like most Maxis fixes this was only temporary as years later it started happening again. Their super-fly monthly patching, a true wonder to modern online gaming. Well, maybe it would be in the right hands.

So then, if you ever see the likes of the Hermit from Outdoor Retreat turning up at a local park, then you will never see that Hermit ever attend the actual hermit hideaway again, but a new one generated to replace them. The same for many other special NPCs and random occults. Banned, but you're nothing but dogs, so not banned, so special trait lost, so to be replaced by new generated sim next time special services required.

To remedy most of this, just remove the line of code from their special trait that says they cannot do normal things. Seeing they are still banned on the Sim Filter they usually won't come. But if the game does still force them like a cat or dog, then they will lose the trait and thereafter turn up here, there and everywhere as a normal sim. Thankfully the latter is not as recurrent. But has made a comeback thanks to Maxis' ever-so-careful-patching.